Interview with Allen and Mark at Rhiz
Posted on 28/07/24After their Performance at the Rhiz with Moshimoshi (fin), I had some questions swirling in my head so I did an interview with Mark and Allen from Massa Nera!
Quick Content Warning: There is a brief mention of suicidal thoughts. It's not a topic of discussion, but was mentioned.
Screamo tends to have short track lengths in most of my experience, so what’s up with your long-ass tracks?
Allen [Guitar]: So atleast for me, when I was first writing screamo I was pretty into post-rock. So, I kinda just got into the habit of writing longer songs. Like, one of our first releases has like an 8 minute long song that we were just like: fuck it. So we took a lot out of that, but we were also big City of Caterpillar fans and they write like really long songs too so it kinda just came naturally out of us, to keep writing long songs.
Mark [Drums]: Envy aswell! Bands like that. But I think, beyond the realm of screamo and post-rock, we listen to many different kinds of music. And many of those genres, or many of those bands and artists tend to be expansive. You know, like Scott Walker, he writes really long songs. The Mars Volta, they write super long songs. I grew up listening to a lot of prog-rock, then a lot of jazz and –
I could definitely hear a lot of prog-rock in there. Especially in your drumming!
Mark: Yeah, the drumming is probably where it’s the most. So yeah, like Allen said, that all just bled into our songwriting. And, y’know on our full-length Derramar | Querrer | Borrar we have some shorter songs.
Allen: Yeah, definitely our shortest songs we’ve ever written. Like, actually it’s a short song, but if you listen to the electronic thing it’s like a 7 minute long song. It is a short song if you just skip the electronic stuff! But yeah, I think like 4 minutes something is our shortest song, or something like that.
Mark: And yeah, personally, I just love that feeling of being surprised by a song, like even when we’re writing it. Not knowing where the songs gonna move, not knowing what direction it’s going to take. And sometimes, y’know, we’ll all have ideas and everyone wants their idea into the song. And well, we’ll try this one!
Allen: We try to find a way to put it all into the song.
Everything Bagels
Mark: Yeah, literally it’s almost like a joke! When we’re writing we’re like, we’ll try this idea, we’ll try that idea. And then we’re like… what if we just did ALL the ideas! And that becomes the –
I think that leads to another question I had: A lot of screamo bands right now are getting more dancy, more hardcore-y. Getting more into that punk territory. It’s like a beat, and you can dance to it. Some screamo bands are even throwing in breakdowns! But you guys seem to alternate between that alot. What’s up with that?
Allen: I think it just goes back to, we listen to so much different music.
Do you guys have a way you try to balance stuff, or do you just feel it out?
Allen: We just feel it out really! For me, when I write a song it’s just like: What have I been listening to lately? And I tend to be really into something for a bit and then move on. Like I still always love all those things I’ve been listening to, but I just get into different moods of what I’m listening to. And that really impacts how I’m writing. Or what I’m writing.
Mark: And I think when we’re putting songs together, as a band, we’re really big into flow. For me that’s the most important thing. Does it all flow together, does it feel natural? Like even if we’re moving from rotating from one modality to another, where if you wrote it all on paper it might not make sense. When you’re listening to it live or on the record, when we go from maybe a dancy part - like the first song, the way you describe it. There’s like a dancy part, it’s on the toms and on the cymbals and we have those Dillinger-esque stabs before it goes back to an earlier riff, even when it might not make sense in theory, when you’re listening to it, it should feel like the most natural thing in the world. Like, of course the song does this, y’know? Surprising but natural. Like we don’t sit down and say: Ok, we’ve been dancing for a while, we need to get heavy again. It’s really just based on intuition and what feels good. The only time we’ll try to analyze it more overtly is if we’re writing a record and we have an idea that’s too similar to what we did in another song. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves, obviously.
Allen: Yeah we definitely try not to repeat ideas.
I have a weird understanding of drums in screamo, because in a sense they can be super simple but in another I feel like that’s also where screamo goes ham the most. I feel like it’s one of the genres where the drummer can go absolutely crazy, like with your band. What do you feel like is the drums' role in screamo?
Mark: I mean I can’t say what it is in general. I feel like it really depends on the band. For me, it depends on the song. I never want our songs to feel like they’re stalling. Like even when we’re taking our time and we’re developing a part. I want there to always be a sense of momentum. I want there to be dynamic shifts. Even within a section, y’know, there should be bigger arcs and smaller arcs within that. So for me that’s the thing I’m most concerned about. And it always has to be supporting what everything else is doing. Even if it would be easy to go extra crazy all the time, it has to be musical. I have to have at least one foot in the pocket, even if I’m going crazy. And for me, I don’t necessarily think of the drums as solely a support instrument. I think of our band as a group where all 4 of us are weaving in and out of each other all the time. So at any moment, someone might be the rhythm, someone might be the support, y’know. Sometimes it’ll be all of us. Sometimes it’ll be the bass, but ofcourse a good amount of times it’ll be me. So yeah, I think for me in the context of Massa Nera, that’s how I think of the drums. I think that the drums have to always be pushing the song forward, it has to ensure that there is always dynamic movement, there always has to be at least a semblance of groove even in the most chaotic moments. And also the drums play a really big role in making sure that things don’t repeat too often. Y’know, if Allen and Chris and Aeryn are really vibing on a part, and are only modulating in terms of their volume or effects, then it’s really up to me to ensure things are moving in a dynamic way. So that’s how I think of the drums. It's all about movement. And I’m not the only one in the band that has drum ideas. Like, Allen also plays the drums. And sometimes I’ll overcomplicate a part and he’d say: "Just play a D-beat." And that’s really the best thing.
Everyone has a mic, everyone’s screaming. How do you guys choose how to do that? Is there a certain purpose to that, or is it like, everyone likes to scream so we’ll find a way for everyone to scream?
Allen: At first it was a necessity. Our first tour our vocalist quit the band, like, 2 days before. And we were like: We’re not gonna drop the tour. So we had to learn how to scream while we’re doing it. At first it was just three of us doing it. Cuz we didn’t have a stable bassist yet.
Mark: A revolving door of bassists.
Allen: So since we started doing it, we were just like, let’s keep doing it. And when Aeryn [Bassist] joined the band we were like, obviously you’re doing vocals too. Like, fuck it, we’re all doing it, might as well keep doing it.
Mark: And I at least feel like - compared to when we had a dedicated vocalist - when we started doing vocals the live performances got a lot more intense.
Allen: In terms of like who does what, at least for me, when I write lyrics I usually do them. I do like to give people parts, like, "Do this with me." In one song, "Anchor", I have a part where it’s these call and responses, where I had everyone say a line with me. So we feel like it’s a little bit more dynamic than with just one person.
Mark: But conversely, when I write the lyrics, sometimes depending on the song, it just isn’t practical for me to do all of them, or sometimes I’ll be writing something and I hear someone else’s voice and we’ll just go from there. So sometimes it’s a practical matter and sometimes it’s a matter of whose voice fits the best and sometimes it's a matter of I wrote these lyrics and they’re really personal to me and I want to. And that’s the other thing. If I’m writing the lyrics, because I know that realistically everyone’s going to be screaming, it kind of forces me to make them less obviously personal. Y’know, and like sort of conceal some of the more autobiographical stuff so everyone in the band can feel it and scream it honestly.
And how do you guys approach lyrics and that kind of aspect when you’re writing a record? Do you have a concept from a person, or do you like have a collective concept of lyrics and themes for a record?
Allen: At least for Derramar | Querer | Borar, every song that I wrote, it was just like something that I was just feeling. Something I felt like I needed to talk about, just like for myself. I wrote the lyrics for the song "Eyless Faces". I was, like, talking about homelessness and how shitty it is for people having to suffer through that. Especially in America where they have almost no support or anything like that. But then I have songs where I’m just talking about being depressed and wanting to k*** myself essentially.
Mark: We all were kind of writing separately, and, I at least, noticed that we were all writing about kind of the same things. So everyone was kind of writing their own lyrics and I was in the background kind of charting the thematic development of like the record. And it was very weird. Like, everything just kind of worked out. It almost sounds like it’s all very intentional, even in terms of repeated imagery. We have a series of songs with lyrics or titles relating to eyes, being seen, being the person who is seeing, being incapable of seeing. And if you looked at the development of those images, you would think it was intentional. But it actually wasn’t. It was because we were all in a similar mind space. But like for example, if someone didn’t know what to put for a song, like I can’t think of a line but this is what I want to say. Because I was trying to create a spider web of the lyrics, I would take a line from a different song and say: "Hey let’s repeat this!" So it was a good combination of personal, cathartic, introspective writing and bigger thematic concerns. But the bigger concerns only happened because of what we were going through. We didn’t start with the concept. At least for that record.
But do you guys generally try to achieve some conceptual coherence?
Allen: Yeah.
Mark: That was the first time we’d done something like that.
Allen: I think what we really care about the most is flow. Like if songs make sense together, that’s cool, but it doesn’t have to be like that.
Mark: For the split we just did with Quiet Fear, I wrote all the lyrics – or most of the lyrics – for our songs. And I guess, for that, I wanted there to be some conceptual unity, but not super overtly. It was really, again, just more about flow. You started with lyrics in one place, you moved somewhere else, and you ended up in a different place. Though with the new record we’re writing –
Allen: It’s more conceptual. At least this one.
Mark: Because it’s commissioned. So it started with the concept. Which, personally, to be honest, I don’t really love. But it is what it is: It’s a unique challenge, heh. But once we get deeper into the concept, the more we learn about it, I’m sure, the more ways we’ll find to make it more personal. And, y’know, rather than writing about the concept, like as if we were handing in a school report, we’ll be able to link the concept to our lives, to the lives of people we know, to film, to literature, to whatever, in a more personal way.
And when you say commissioned, what do you mean by that?
Mark: So our bassist has a master in music composition. She composes for, like, string quartets and stuff. She was given a commission by this group "Composing Earth". They basically work with musicians and composers to create works of art that address the climate crisis. And somehow she was able to convince them to give us a commission. Knowing full well how we sound and what kind of music we write... and they were down with it. One of the pieces we played today is gonna be part of it. That more tom tom driven thing that was earlier in the set. It’s got a ways to go, but it’s coming along, y’know.
Allen: It’s gonna be a weird release.
Mark: Yeah, even weirder! Even nerdier!
Ok as a final question, how did you guys find your way into screamo and this kind of music? Like what are your inspirations in that regard?
Allen: When I was in High School I used to like stuff like Balance & Composure and Touché Amouré. And I wasn’t really aware of what screamo was. And then me and Chris [the other guitarist of Massa Nera] met in High School, we had a guitar class together and we would kinda just play together and talk about music and stuff. Title Fight, shit like that. For me actually, finding screamo was by accident. We went to a record store and there was an Orchid – Chaos Is Me record there. And I was like, oh what’s this? And I was like: Alright, it’s got a skeleton on it, I’ll take a picture for later. And after I was oh cool. I still didn’t know what screamo was. I just thought it was some, like, weird band or whatever. And so for the first 3 years, me and Chris had no idea what screamo is. We were just writing music cuz we liked Touché Amouré and we liked Orchid. And as we played shows people were like, oh, screamo. They would like mention screamo to us. And we were like, oh, this is a thing, okay. Like, cool, alright haha! So for me, playing shows, that’s how I was introduced to screamo. Where I heard the label of screamo, where it’s assigned this, like, underground music, not like just a general oh they’re screaming and theres some music so it’s screamo. Inspiration-wise: I’d say City of Caterpillar. But honestly I don’t listen to much screamo anymore. I listen to a lot of Death Metal, like my favourite Bands ever are like Gaza and System of a Down.
Mark: For me, when I was young, I was really into like metal, thrash metal. I mean I still am. Death Metal. Through that I got into bands like The Dillinger Escape Plan, who are my favourite band! Simultaneously I was getting into punk-rock, post-hardcore, Thursday! My other favourite band. At the Drive In. Emo Stuff like Jimmy Eat World and Sunny Day Real Estate. This is like 2008, so it’s before the, like, emo revival movement I guess. And, y’know, this is also the peak time for “screamo” to be misused as a label within mainstream music. So, y’know, Thursday were always called a screamo band. And being a nerd, I would read interviews with them and they would talk about what real screamo was. They would name-drop all these bands. Geoff Rickly [lead vocalist of Thursday] used to throw shows in his basement when he was in college. So I looked up the bands. I think the first screamo song I heard was "Venus and Bacchus" by Saetia. And then from there it was like a rabbit hole, listening to the more entry level stuff, Page 99, Orchid, City of Caterpillar, Majority Rule. And then more obscure stuff, at least it was more obscure at the time. Joshua Fit for Battle, Love Lost but not Forgotten, A Day in Black and White. Idk, jesus, like dozens upon dozens of bands. Gospel! If you know that band. Amazing band.
Allen: Prog-screamo basically, haha.
Mark: Prog-screamo! Literally! Like King Crimson mixed with a screamo band! Crazy drumming. …Who Calls so Loud, etc. And for me, what I loved about screamo, is that it combined the extremity, that I was really attracted to in metal. It combined that with the sensitivity and vulnerability that I found really attractive in the softer kinds of punk-rock. Like Jimmy Eat World or Thursday. Not that Thursday is soft, but to my standards at the time – listening to shit like Pig Destroyer everyday – Thursday was a soft band. As far as of now… When it comes to Massa Nera actually, kind of like Allen, I don’t really think of screamo when we’re writing music. Like actually, when we were writing Derramar | Querer | Borrar, I didn’t listen to heavy music for like 2 years. I just listened to ambient music, electronic music, hauntology, folk music, and some Gorguts, actually. I would listen to some Gorguts. Because I didn’t want to be pulling from stuff that was too similar. Actually when Massa Nera started, I didn’t even think – So, it was a different band and then I joined and it became Massa Nera – And the music that you all [directed at Allen] were writing at the time, I didn’t even think of it as screamo. It wasn’t until we put out our first EP that people started calling it screamo, that I was like, oh, I guess we’re a screamo band. Which was great, cuz then I had an excuse to talk to you all about Kidcrash and Off Minor and I got to nerd out like crazy! But, um, even now, I don’t really think of us as a screamo band. It’s not like were not a screamo band. I think it’s just like: screamo and. I feel like we can do whatever we want.
I get a lot of the same energy from 5th wave emo. Where it’s like, it feels like that but it doesn’t have to sound like that necessarily.
Mark: Yeah! That’s kind of similar to the approach that we take. But the way it manifests musically is just completely different obviously, a little more deranged haha! There is this great screamo band in Montreal called The Ultimate Screamo Band. Ridiculous name, but great band. Archie, dear friend of ours. And years ago, when we did this split with Frail Body, Infant Island and dianacrawls – do you know those bands?
I love Frail Body.
Mark: Fuck yeah! Check out Infant Island and dianacrawls. They’re amazing Bands. And as a side note, I think that if I do think of screamo bands when we’re making music, it’ll probably be like more bands that we’re friends with. Our contemporaries. And not even like in terms of what they’re literally doing sonically, more like oh, conceptually, that’s an interesting idea. Or aesthetically, that’s interesting. How can we do that? Or like oooh, a lot of bands are doing this, we need to avoid this. But like so we’re in Montreal, and our song on that split Nunca Seremos Lo Mismo, it was the first song we recorded with our current lineup. I think it’s got a lot of movement, it 5 minutes long, it’s got a long dancing part in the middle. I showed it to Archie and Archie’s like: "So, you’re like prog-screamo now, I guess." Y’know so I was like –
Yeah, there were many parts where I was like: this is prog-screamo.
Mark: Oh yeah!
Some of your drumming reminded me of the drumming on A Newfound Interest in Connecticut. Where it’s very atmospheric but there’s still a lot going on. You kind of have that both going on at the same time.
Mark: Oh shit! Yeah, yeah! I could see that. Fuck yeah! I love that album!